How to achieve sharper negatives with less grain

super_claret

super_claret

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Although I don’t mind grain, I keep reading about using different developers to obtain sharper and less grainy negatives.
I’m currently using Ilford FP4 plus and developing in ID-11 stock solution. Is there a better combination that will yield sharper less grainy negatives, without using slower film?

Would it help to use fresh developer instead of reusing the ID-11? Are there better developers for this purpose?
I’ve ordered the book by John Finch…The Art of Black & White Developing, in order to learn more but it’s a 2 week delivery time, so hoping for some advice from you knowledgeable people.

Thanks in advance

Mark
 
XTOL is quite a high acutance developer.

You shouldn't be seeing an awful lot of grain on 120 FP4 unless you are developing at quite high temperatures without adjusting the development time or you are under-exposing.
 
ian barber said:
XTOL is quite a high acutance developer.

You shouldn't be seeing an awful lot of grain on 120 FP4 unless you are developing at quite high temperatures without adjusting the development time or you are under-exposing.
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Thanks Ian. As a beginner, I'm not entirely sure whether I'm achieving the best possible with the current film and dev combo. So just asking for opinions really. There are so many variables at play with shooting and developing film, it's hard for a beginner to know if they're on the right track. I'm happy with the results so far but want to learn more.
 
super_claret said:
Thanks Ian. As a beginner, I'm not entirely sure whether I'm achieving the best possible with the current film and dev combo. So just asking for opinions really. There are so many variables at play with shooting and developing film, it's hard for a beginner to know if they're on the right track. I'm happy with the results so far but want to learn more.
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Are you using a development tank or rotary processor
What dilution are you using the ID/11 at
At what temperature are you developing at
What dev time are you using
 
super_claret said:
Thanks Ian. As a beginner, I'm not entirely sure whether I'm achieving the best possible with the current film and dev combo. So just asking for opinions really. There are so many variables at play with shooting and developing film, it's hard for a beginner to know if they're on the right track. I'm happy with the results so far but want to learn more.
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Mark, you are at the start of a long journey. Regarding the post title, there is no 'silver bullet' and there are no easy answers. The 'net and books will give you a zillion 'answers', and possibly leave you down a rabbit hole with your head spinning and no candle.

ID11 (or kodak D76) has probably taught more folks about developing film than all the others combined so learn to use what you have got. Read the FP4+ film tech data sheet and take note of the dilutions/times of ID11 and which is most suitable for what you want - fine grain, sharpness or the best of both because the two are rarely compatible. Manufacturers film speeds are usually rather optimistic so after a while you can try shooting FP4+ at a lower ISO, say 100 or even slightly lower and see what the results are.

This is probably not what you want to hear but it is the mantra that has been taught forever and is a tried and tested methodology.

In other words 'learn to walk first'. :)
 
Also, don't get hung up on grain, it is part of the natural (often desirable) character of a photograph taken on film.

I used to use 35 mm. FP4 + ID11 (or the now defunct Acutol) back in the day and it works fine, even when enlarged and cropped. Just try to work cleanly, be careful about the dilution and temperature of your solutions, development times and agitation. Read and follow the instructions that come with the chemicals and you won't go far wrong.
 
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ian barber said:
Are you using a development tank or rotary processor
What dilution are you using the ID/11 at
At what temperature are you developing at
What dev time are you using
Click to expand...
I'm using ID-11 stock solution at 20 degrees for 8 mins 30 secs and increasing time by 10% per additional roll processed in the same dev. The last film developed, which was the 4th roll had 11mins 30 secs. Developing in a Paterson tank, agitating for the 1st minute and then 10 secs every minute thereafter.
 
Glenn Mac said:
Also, don't get hung up on grain, it is part of the natural (often desirable) character of a photograph taken on film.

I used to use 35 mm. FP4 + ID11 (or the now defunct Acutol) back in the day and it works fine, even when enlarged and cropped. Just try to work cleanly, be careful about the dilution and temperature of your solutions, development times and agitation. Read and follow the instructions that come with the chemicals and you won't go far wrong.
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Thanks Glenn. As I mentioned, I'm not against grain at all but just trying to learn for future reference.
 
Keith Haithwaite said:
Mark, you are at the start of a long journey. Regarding the post title, there is no 'silver bullet' and there are no easy answers. The 'net and books will give you a zillion 'answers', and possibly leave you down a rabbit hole with your head spinning and no candle.

ID11 (or kodak D76) has probably taught more folks about developing film than all the others combined so learn to use what you have got. Read the FP4+ film tech data sheet and take note of the dilutions/times of ID11 and which is most suitable for what you want - fine grain, sharpness or the best of both because the two are rarely compatible. Manufacturers film speeds are usually rather optimistic so after a while you can try shooting FP4+ at a lower ISO, say 100 or even slightly lower and see what the results are.

This is probably not what you want to hear but it is the mantra that has been taught forever and is a tried and tested methodology.

In other words 'learn to walk first'. :)
Click to expand...
Thanks Keith, wise words. That's the reason why I have a fridge full of FP4 plus and HP5, so that I can get used to those films before I start to try anything else. I'm happy with the results by the way.
 
super_claret said:
I'm using ID-11 stock solution at 20 degrees for 8 mins 30 secs and increasing time by 10% per additional roll processed in the same dev. The last film developed, which was the 4th roll had 11mins 30 secs. Developing in a Paterson tank, agitating for the 1st minute and then 10 secs every minute thereafter.
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With ID-11 / D76 stock, you should be fine at 8 1/2 minutes.

I always work on the principle that if I can pour the developer into the tank in under 10 seconds then I agitate continuously for the first 30 seconds and then 5 seconds every minute.

What would be nice is, if you can post an un-edited scan
 
ian barber said:
With ID-11 / D76 stock, you should be fine at 8 1/2 minutes.

I always work on the principle that if I can pour the developer into the tank in under 10 seconds then I agitate continuously for the first 30 seconds and then 5 seconds every minute.

What would be nice is, if you can post an un-edited scan
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As I said Ian, I'm more than happy with the results I've achieved but just curious whether I can squeeze more detail out of FP4. I'm going to do some more shots but use my Bronica SQ-A instead of the Zeiss Ikon Nettar. I may be trying to achieve the impossible using a 70 year old camera. If I get the time, I'll post an unedited scan...would you be able to assess it with the image posting restrictions being 1080px?
 
Try 510 pyro, I have found it to an excellent developer, Also negative quality is not just dependant on any type of developer you intend to use, the process starts in the camera, type of lighting, exposure plays a big part, a well exposed negative is a must for quality negatives, lens quality also helps in the sharpness of the negatives, dev temperature and consistency through out the process is also important, experimentation with films sensitivity, and finding what film , developer combo in a particular camera is good working practice, so many choices and decisions to make it’s what makes film so fun and sometimes frustrating to use
 
ID11 gives a very good balance between film speed, fine grain and sharpness. But this balance can be altered. I see you are using it as a stock solution. Like this, and at 1+1 dilution, the balance is tipped in favour of fine grain. But the ingredient in ID11 that eats away the grain also eats away at sharpness. If you use a dilution of 1 part developer to 3 parts water (1+3) this ingredient becomes more diluted and less effective. The result is more grain and more sharpness. But not in equal amounts. You won't notice the increase in grain in 120. You hardly notice it in 35mm. But you will notice an increase in sharpness. As this extra sharpness actually makes the grain more crisp, any extra grain that you get in 35mm FP4 is an advantage rather than a problem. So FP4 developed in ID11 at 1+3 looks much better in my eyes than FP4 developed in ID11 at 1+1.

Alan
 
Alan Clark said:
ID11 gives a very good balance between film speed, fine grain and sharpness. But this balance can be altered. I see you are using it as a stock solution. Like this, and at 1+1 dilution, the balance is tipped in favour of fine grain. But the ingredient in ID11 that eats away the grain also eats away at sharpness. If you use a dilution of 1 part developer to 3 parts water (1+3) this ingredient becomes more diluted and less effective. The result is more grain and more sharpness. But not in equal amounts. You won't notice the increase in grain in 120. You hardly notice it in 35mm. But you will notice an increase in sharpness. As this extra sharpness actually makes the grain more crisp, any extra grain that you get in 35mm FP4 is an advantage rather than a problem. So FP4 developed in ID11 at 1+3 looks much better in my eyes than FP4 developed in ID11 at 1+1.

Alan
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Brilliant, thank you Alan, just the info I was hoping for. If diluting ID-11, 1 + 3, is it reusable or one shot?
 
It's one shot.
There are alternatives. Diluting to 1+2 seems to give the same results as 1+3, i.e. noticably more sharpness with hardy any increase in grain. Development time with 1+3 is quite long, and 1+2 shortens this. The downside is that Ilford gives dev. times for 1+3 but not 1+2.
My times for ID11 at 1+2 are 12.5 minutes for FP4 and 14 minutes for HP5. This is for film exposed on a sunny day.

Alan
 
510 pyro is a one part dev unlike Pyrocat HD and very easy to use especially in the semi stand dev, nothing really complicated compared to ID11, Pyrocat HD might seem a little daunting to a first user
 
Semi Stand is certainly not for someone just starting out and in my opinion is best used in special circumstances and not every day use. ID/11 or D76 is probably the best choice when just getting started because its easy to use, nearly all film manufacturers test their films with it and give a suggested starting point.

Like Alan said, 1+2 will give an increase in sharpness but I think he has already committed to reusing it so I don't believe he will now be able to start further dilutions in that batch.
 
You don’t have to use semi stand using 510 pyro, you can use it with normal standard Ilford agitation method, it’s ready mixed, economical at 1to 100 and last nearly for ever as a working solution. As regards semi stand, using its not rocket science, invert for 1 min, at 10 mins 1 inversion and empty at end time
 
You are right Ian, if the OP has been using and re-using a stock solution, he should mix a new batch of ID11 for one-shot use.
There's another alternative. Perceptol. At 1+3 it is absolutely wonderful with FP4. I have been using it as my developer of choice with FP4 for years now. In 35mm there is no grain in normal size prints. Sharpness is excellent, and tonality is wonderful.
Most of my photography these days is with a pair of 35mm cameras -OM1s. One is loaded with FP4, the other with HP5. For may years now I have developed the HP5 in ID11 at 1+2. But have recently been developing it in Perceptol 1+3 and , if anything, it is better.
Alan
 
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